Garbage In, Garbage Out « A Voice in the Wilderness

10Aug/0932

Garbage In, Garbage Out

Obama's current political troubles are the result of his misguided worldview, not GOP operatives

by:R.J. Moeller

As pundits and politicians scurry to explain, or explain away, the declining popularity and poll numbers for President Obama, the Democrat-dominated congress, and their Leftist policies intended to “re-make” America, many are missing the most obvious potential explanation. The ideas and pieces of legislation being suggested, from cap-and-trade to socialized medicine, are really bad ones and stem from a misguided worldview.

Perhaps it isn’t all the fault of Rush Limbaugh or evil insurance companies that Americans are voicing their disdain for the current Democratic leadership’s attempt to use an admittedly tumultuous and trying time for the nation to steam-roll every expansion of the federal government’s size, scope, and power that pops into their heads. Certainly there are contributing factors involved with the precipitous decline in the number of Americans who are in favor of the cost of the brand of change Obama promised. But the root cause for waning support may just be that the ideas and values our president and many currently in the highest reaches of power believe in are wrong and ineffective.

Let me be as clear as I can be: I do not reject Barack Obama the person. I do not question the fact that he believes he is doing what is best for this country. I do not believe he was born in Kenya. I do not believe he is a secret Muslim. He is by all accounts a loving father and good husband and provides an excellent role in this regard. God bless him for these and many other outstanding traits. My problem, and I believe his fundamental problem, is with the values and philosophies that shaped and influenced him prior to his becoming our Commander-in-Chief. My strong disagreement with him is at the level of values and convictions and world-view, not race or ethnicity.

Barack Obama and his administration are starting to suffer from the inevitable impact of years spent sitting at the feet of radical mentors who held distorted views of economics, politics, and morality.

To verify the truth of whether or not Barack Obama’s mentors and their ideas were indeed radical in nature, I turned not to the usual suspects for my information and proof. I don’t go to the pages of conservative magazines and Republican websites. Rather I sought out such self-avowed liberal sources as The New Republic Magazine, the New York Times, Barack Obama’s own published memoirs, and to the “bible” for all radical community organizers, Saul Alinsky’s book, Rules for Radicals.

It was here I read for myself the very words of the very people that molded, shaped, influenced, and motivated the political worldview of our 44^th president. What I find is much more shocking and disturbing than some Sean Hannity diatribe, a Michael Steele scripted Republican National Committee press release, or a You Tube video forwarded by a wacky relative.

Barack Obama, the presidential candidate, was introduced to the nation as a community organizer from Chicago who represented a “new kind” of politician, one above the typical political fray. He presented himself as a consensus-builder, and talked frequently about reaching across the aisle to his Republican counterparts. He opined about a “common sense approach” and the need for our nation to move past “divisive” politics. The problem with his middle-of-the-road, even-Steven portrait of Obama, is that, in reality, it never existed.

How do we know that?

Let’s start with his Senate career. This 2-year period spent as a Senator, one in which he co-authored no more than a handful of meaningless bills, was by far the most “moderate” of his entire life. For such a term of moderation Barack Obama was rated the “most liberal" voting member of Congress. He stood to the Left of Ted Kennedy, John Kerry, and Joe Biden. During the 20 years before becoming the most liberal-voting Senator, he was known far and wide as a far-Left Chicago community organizer, one endowed with unusually effective rhetorical gifts.

So let’s turn next to his training as a community organizer. What is a community organizer?

It is at base a social agitator. At first I thought it might just be someone who organized block parties and helps to get out the vote? In fact, their primary goal according to Rules for Radicals, (and I quote) is to, “rub raw the wounds of discontent.” This is to be accomplished among primarily minority groups whose anger can be mobilized to bring about radical societal change. Saul Alinksy encourages tactics such as “overwhelming the system.” These tactics are designed to get the current system to collapse so a new collectivist, re-distributive form of social order can be erected in its place.

In other words, the community organizer’s political views, their "means" and "ends", are distinctly Marxist. (If you disagree, then you don’t know what Marxism is.) Their primary goal is to amass and centralize political power. Community organizers are left to decide what their own definitions of morality will be. This way, according to their dogma, anything standing in the way of doing what they have defined as the “right thing” becomes expendable. I’m not making this up. It’s in their literature, the very literature Obama embraced and taught classes on to new recruits during the 1980’s and 1990’s.

In one of the New Republic’s articles on the recent presidential campaign, journalist Ryan Lizza chronicled the ascendancy of Barack Obama. He takes us on the journey of a 24 year old agnostic who moved to Chicago after responding to an advertisement in the New York Times, to the United States Senator who would eventually become Commander-in-Chief. The details of that rise, of the people Obama worked for, and the things he believed in and taught others to believe in, are all at serious odds with the bi-partisan, non-radical, new type of politician President Obama insisted he was during the campaign.

For example, the organization that hired Obama after he graduated Columbia University was the Calumet Community Religious Conference (CCRC). The men who ran it were primarily atheist and white males who realized that were being rejected by black pastors and community leaders because of their skin color and lack of religious faith. They hired Barack because he was black, well spoken, and believed in the radical ideology of Chicago’s own Saul Alinsky. Alinsky is ofen called the “father of community organizing” though he died in 1972. His influence lived on however, as he left behind him a number of organizations that trained future agitators under the guidance of his published magnum opus, Rules for Radicals.

Barack Obama was himself first turned away by the same Chicago pastors and leaders. Why? Because he was working for the same atheist white guys the group had previously rejected, and it was known that he was not a church-going man.

The turning point for Barack Obama’s career came when he was introduced to Reverend Jeremiah Wright of Trinity United Church of Christ in Hyde Park. He urged Obama to join his church in order to win over the confidence of the black community, which he did.It cannot be avoided that Barack Obama, the man who claims to be a moderate from the school of common sense, chose for his home church and pastor a mentor that a pro-Obama liberal magazine described like this:

Wright was a former Muslim and black nationalist who had studied at Howard and Chicago, and Trinity's guiding principles--what the church calls the "BlackValue System"--included a "Disavowal of the Pursuit of 'Middleclassness.'"

So who helped shape President Obama’s thinking? In addition to the self-avowed radicals who idolized the likes of Saul Alinsky, the next most important person was Jeremiah Wright. Wright taught his congregants that white people invented AIDS, America is an awful place that needs fundamental change, and that the purpose of the church body is to strive for the re-distribution of wealth. So what is the ideological formula that formed the political mindset of our 44^th President?

Leftist Social Agitation + Leftist Social Gospel + Corrupt Chicago Politics = Barack Obama.

The point here is this: the President and his policies are becoming increasingly unpopular because they are simply wrong. They are wrong because they emanate from ill-conceived, incorrect understandings of the world around us. They are based on a flawed view of economics, history, and Judeo-Christian inspired American ideals and values. Because his policies are based on wrong ideas, if he continues to follow this misguided course to re-shape America, they will fail and he will fail.

I consistently read men like Thomas Sowell and Milton Friedman for a better understanding of economics. I turn to the likes of CS Lewis, GK Chesterton and Albert Mohler for matters of faith and worldview. The pastors of the churches I have attended in my life have undeniably impacted me in profound ways and have helped to shape the way I think about God. I am proud to be associated in any way with any of these men. Soaking up wisdom from others is an unavoidable reality of life and learning for all humans who begin that life knowing little of the world, of economics, of politics, etc.

Although I am not responsible for every word of every book or sermon these men have put out for public consumption, it has been impossible for me not to come away from the time I spend with them (or their thoughts) changed forever.

So who changed Obama? Who helped steer him in the direction he has now walked for decades as a public figure, first in Chicago and now in Washington? Could it be that the ideology and worldview Barack Obama was exposed to is what has led him, and now our country, to the point where handing over more than 1/6 of the American allegedly-free-market economy to the federal government is even on the table? Might more and more Americans be rejecting the president's plans not just because of a poor marketing strategy by the White House, but because more and more Americans are realizing that the radical community organizer persona that seemed trendy and hip last year was really just their "Obama goggles" talking?

Like any other loyal American I would rather have my President succeed than fail. So here’s my advice: You can still succeed, Mr. President, but only by radically changing course now. Become the moderate you ensured us you are. Prove to us that the distance you have attempted to put between you and your radical past is sincere.

Take the intellectual and ideological refuse you filled your head with for all those years out to the curb one last time and let history's garbageman place it upon the pile where it belongs.

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Tom P.
August 10th, 2009 - 22:16

Such a good point about the people influenced you RJ, and the people in each of our lives' who impact and help us form our own worldviews!

I too don't hate Obama, but am deeply concerned about the direction he's leading our nation in.

God bless you sir.
Anonymous
August 11th, 2009 - 08:03

Cliches endure because they contain a germ (or few) of truth, and that you are known by the company you keep is certainly applicable to Barack Hussein Obama.

Excellent analysis of the current situation.
Anonymous
August 11th, 2009 - 08:13

I read your page and I hope you will take a little time to read mine. http://www.dixhistory.com/obama.htm
Hannah
August 11th, 2009 - 09:00

Hey Robbie, great post. To use one of your influencers who I think often says it best, "Those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." C.S. Lewis

I too think Obama is desperately trying to push an agenda that he truly believes in and thinks will benefit us as the American people. His intentions aren't in themselves bad. But his "conscience" is rooted in his own (very) limited experience and those who he allowed to shape his political views.
Anonymous
August 11th, 2009 - 10:29

Mr.Obama and his ilk are consumed with their own desire for power. He has farmed out all of the legislation from the stimulus to health care. He doesn't care what is in any of the bills, just that it will destroy private enterprise and personal freedom. He is not a good person, he is an angry leftist out to turn our world upside down. He is a complete narcissist. You don't need a psychology degree to evaluate his behavior and words. He has no moral fiber. I agree with your observation that he has a marxist world view. I hope he fails miserably and we can keep him from destroying this country.
Anonymous
August 11th, 2009 - 10:49

I disagree with the statement that Obama's intentions are not bad. His intentions are to destroy/transform the American character which for over 200 years has been shaped by a desire for individual freedom and the necessary prerequisite of limited government. Such intentions are bad, very bad.
Rachel
August 11th, 2009 - 11:20

Great post – thanks for sharing.
Anonymous
August 11th, 2009 - 11:26

RJM,

Thanks for another informative piece. This was helpful to me to sort of break things down and understand "why". I appreciated how clearly your thoughts were articulated and laid out. Keep it up!

Oh and the scorpions, tarantulas, & rattle snakes say what's up from AZ!

JWH
Travis
August 11th, 2009 - 13:00

This is by far the best article I've read articulating Obama's far-Left indoctrination and worldview. Wonderful job, RJ!!!

I hate being called a racist when the only real problem I have with Obama is his liberalism, not his skin color.
RIGHTontarget
August 11th, 2009 - 14:13

Fundamentally, I agree with everything *factual* you said in your post. He was – and continues to be – shaped by the likes of Alinsky, Jeremiah Wright, Ayers, and the Chicago Machine.

What I vehemently disagree with is the tone in which it is presented. You make him out to be almost a victim of circumstances rather than a calculating, morality-free marxist who would destroy this country in the name of 'Spreading the wealth around'.

I *DO* hope that Obama FAILS. I hope that his POLICIES FAIL. I hope that everything he has managed to ram through congress is such a massive FAILURE that a (hopefully *near-*) future US Congress sees the results of the foolishness passed since The Mighty O was inaugurated. I say this simply because his purpose and that of America -his policies on international relations, monetary policy, foreign policy, healthcare, and domestic policy) are at odds with one another. If Obama succeeds, *America* fails.
Robert J. Moeller
August 11th, 2009 - 14:44

Great posts so far, guys. Good to hear from you JWH. Thanks for the kind words Hannah, and way to go with the solid CS quote.

Some of you are saying that you either do not believe Obama's intentions are good, or that I've downplayed the role Barack has in his own ideological, moral making.

To the first point, none of us can question the heart or motive of someone else if we don't know them personally. Obviously that isn't a rule that cannot be broken. For example, we CAN judge the intentions of someone like Saddam Hussein when he gassed his own people. He wanted to eradicate the Kurds and all dissent. But with Obama it becomes much more complicated. He isn't a bad guy. He isn't trying to kill people. He thinks what he is doing is the right thing. His intentions are to make this country better. What are wrong, and what we can and must point out, are his actions and policies which have been largely influenced by his radical education as a young man. He does intend I believe to take more control from the people and put it in the hands of the government…but that is because he was taught and believes that this is the right, moral thing to do. He is factually wrong, not some evil conspiratorial fiend.

To the second point, each of us is ultimately responsible for what we do and believe…but I'm simply trying to convey that I feel for the guy. I feel for anyone who is led astray. I feel for a young man who got himself caught up in the corrupt, neo-Marxist, social-agitating world of South Side Chicago politics. He is responsible for what he does, but when you look back on his life, when you read his two books (as I have), you see that even now, years later, he recognizes that he was drawn to these groups of people with these radical ideologies because he never felt he belonged anywhere and here he was accepted. That is sad. That's all I was trying to convey.

We can hate the man's ideas without hating the man.
Anonymous
August 11th, 2009 - 15:59

Spoken like a reflective man for others. Good for you. I hope you're right.

Yes, we can!…hate the man's ideas without hating the man.
Anonymous
August 11th, 2009 - 16:07

Agree with the analysis.
One thought….the agitating and overwelming of the system are only effective to the minority that is "on the outside looking in." The (socialist) ideas/concepts can not withstand the light of day. They will ultimately be rejected by the masses.

The only way his ideas/concepts can prevail (be implemented) are through force. That is why Americans are concerned when we hear Obama is asking his believers to report on their neighbors if they dissent; and paying union members to help elected officials stiffle concerned citizens; removing the secret ballot from union voting; and attempting to enact the "Fairness Doctrine".
Anonymous
August 11th, 2009 - 17:27

Well said, but… Do you really think he will EVER be a moderate?

B Hussein Obama is so far to the left that his version of 'moderate' would still be that of a true leftist. I think his mindset is unalterable.

Sadly, this will have a tremendous negative effect of the United States of America
Anonymous
August 11th, 2009 - 18:09

The idea that we are influenced by people that we read and trust is correct. I have read C.S.Lewis' writings and have read some of the Founding Fathers' writings and biographies. I wished that our educational system would require more studies of our true history.
The children of today are so enthralled by the celebrities that they don't have any regard for those that really matter. We are headed in the same direction of those celebs, and that ain't good!
EW
Shayne
August 11th, 2009 - 18:24

Excellent article and well thought out. I enjoyed reading it and will have to find the time to link it on my blog as well.
Rick
August 12th, 2009 - 09:55

BHO has been infulenced, but he is what he is now. He is a store front,an anchor man. The Democrats have gotten very good at presenting great ad campaigns but poor products. He has (appropriately named) a multitude of Czars to do his work. He can't appropriately defend his health care bill because it isn't his and he hasn't read it. The American people are romantics who dream of a great leader to follow, unfortunately there now is buyers remorse for some. I really enjoyed your article. Very informative and to the point of how he got to be who he is.
I hate what he stands for and what he is trying to do to this country.
Anonymous
August 12th, 2009 - 10:35

Obama adheres to a specific brand of socialism that might be termed as "cerebral socialism." This is where most of the basic tenets are twisted with the intellect, instinct, and desires. At this junction, it's hard to project where this blend might direct its intent. However, it cannot and will not work- ever. History certainly proves (e.g. Lenin; Trotsky) that this world view is incomplete and incorrect.

Unfortunately, Obama, et al do not understand how/why their brand (of socialism) is wrong. It is because it is entirely built on head knowledge. Ergo, it is, indeed, out of touch with reality.

Ignorance is the enemy of mankind.
Dennis
August 12th, 2009 - 10:54

Very well written piece. I believe you can go to an even earlier portion of BHO's life for even more examples of influences/indoctrination. If one includes his time in a Muslim school, and especially the notably strange relationship he had with "father figure" Frank Davis, there is even more to explain the formation of the views he espouses.
Tim J
August 12th, 2009 - 12:36

RJ-

Enjoyed your article here. I really appreciate you taking the time to read through other (liberal) publications in researching this topic. It's easy to just rely on Natl Review and Townhall for our news as conservatives, but we must equip ourselves with everything out there. Know thy enemy, as it is said.

Best of luck in your writing.
Sue
August 12th, 2009 - 13:20

Hi. Enjoyed your article and am pleased to see that more and more people are uncovering the real Barack Obama.

My only criticism is that you seem to suggest that Obama's worldview was shaped in Chicago, when in fact it was shaped much earlier.

Obama gravitated towards Alinsky's teaching, community organizing, Wright, and even Chicago, because of much earlier influences. How early? Obama's mother, Stanley Ann Dunham, was not a Christian from Kansas as he claims, rather she was a Marxist and an avowed Atheist.

Obama's white grandparents were Leftists as well, to the extent that his grandfather, Stanley Dunham, sought out an appropriate mentor for Obama during his teen years: Frank Marshall Davis. Davis was an actual member of the then Moscow-controlled Communist Party USA.

You might call Obama a red diaper baby.

The following url's will help provide the facts:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/politics/obama/chi-0703270151mar27-archive,0,2623808.story

http://www.aim.org/aim-column/obamas-communist-mentor/
Anonymous
August 12th, 2009 - 14:44

http://robbymoeller.blogspot.com/2009/08/garbage-in-gargbage-out.html

"…I feel for a young man who got himself caught up in the corrupt, neo-Marxist, social-agitating world of South Side Chicago politics. He is responsible for what he does, but when you look back on his life, when you read his two books (as I have), you see that even now, years later, he recognizes that he was drawn to these groups of people with these radical ideologies because he never felt he belonged anywhere and here he was accepted."
*** What a crock. A sick, LAME EXCUSE for tearin a country to shreads! Boo hoo, POOR me, I was misled, so now I'm gonna take the country apart …

GROW UP and accept responsibility for your stupid choices of "friends" yourself … We didn't make them for you. Had he been goin to God lovin Bible based church he'd have known these people were all wrong. He made no effort, it seems, to investigate, just let himself be pulled in by them. I have no pitty on the guy.
I feel for our country, not this guy.
Anonymous
August 13th, 2009 - 06:50

Overall an excellent analysis, but I must take issue with the following statements: "Let me be as clear as I can be: I do not reject Barack Obama the person. I do not question the fact that he believes he is doing what is best for this country." Based on your well-documented assessment of Obama's radical and subversive political views, the previous statement seems completely illogical. If Obama is a power-hungry Marxist bent on destroying America's free-market economy, there must be something inherently wrong with his character. The fact that he would spend years sitting at the feet of "radical mentors who held distorted views of economics, politics, and morality" indicates that something was radically wrong with Obama to begin with.

The following video, entitled "The Obama Deception," may provide some insight: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAaQNACwaLw

I've seen this well-documented video (produced by award-winning documentary film maker Alex Jones), and I highly recommend it to anyone who thinks that Obama is only doing what he believes is best for this country.

Here's a summary: "The Obama Deception is a hard-hitting film that completely destroys the myth that Barack Obama is working for the best interests of the American people.

"The Obama phenomenon is a hoax carefully crafted by the captains of the New World Order. He is being pushed as savior in an attempt to con the American people into accepting global slavery."
R.
August 13th, 2009 - 16:44

Interesting & thoughtful posts. The seeds of freedom of thought,,,etc. are well planted, & this time in history will look like a period of bad gardening.
Bill
August 14th, 2009 - 13:06

How can anyone with any common sense and a few historical reference books not see that America was founded on a series of hateful, self-serving principles by outcasts from a dying empire? There were good forefathers, and some with bad intentions. Most were agnostic, not God-fearing Christians as so many would like to believe.

I am an American and greatly love this country, but I am not deluded by the myths of "freedom" and "democracy" to the point I ignore historical facts, our ill-advised romps around the globe "freeing" everybody from themselves. This is a wonderful nation but it does have a sordid past. While I don't agree with everything President Obama stands for, I don't agree with everything that America stands for either. We have been both a boon to global society as well as a scab. We are good and bad. What's wrong with admitting that and wanting better?

What Wright said was true…our chickens are indeed coming home to roost. And with the behavior of some of these gun-toting racist "true Americans" at these town hall meetings, how else might we be viewed around the world? I'm an NRA member and love shooting. I'm a Christian from the south, but the radical right is truly scaring me, just as much as the radical left. My neighbor in Virginia is a great guy, even with the confederate flag in his rear window. He said to me "You know what, all this healthcare business is really just about that black guy being president and wanting to make us like Europe. It really makes some of us mad, I hear it all the time." All one can do with that is shake your head and pray things don't get ugly because of growing fears and xenophobia.
Anonymous
August 15th, 2009 - 11:55

Excellent commentary…but I am not sure what Gargbage is (unless it is a typo).
Anonymous
August 15th, 2009 - 13:03

What an arrogant analysis.

Everyone is shaped by the people in their lives. Every child is a product of indoctrination. this article assumes full understanding of the forces shaping Obama's motives and logic.

The arrogance lies not only in assuming you have a complete grasp on his influencers, but assuming your influences constituent the "correct" worldview. Certainly I can find mentors in your life, exploit them as "radical" and paint a compromising picture of your worldview. This type of dissertation is insulting because it implicitly assumes people can not think for themselves. They are simply unable to keep a completely open mind. Would you say that about yourself?

The point is not Obama. These types of articles avoid the issues. Anyone interested in discovering truth looks to a scientific approach on the problems we face.

Whether it's socialism or healthcare, let's crunch numbers and learn to understand the psychology of human behavior. Let's do our best to present information in an unbiased manner. Let's swallow our pride when we know we're wrong and try to avoid inherent human narcissim. This is how we learn and progress.

You have a lot of well thought out, well argued pieces in this blog. You are obviously well-read and have a great understanding of things. Don't fall into the politics trap. Keep it about the real issues and the evidence backing up your points. We don't need vague worldview generalizations and clips of Olbermann or Hannity acting ridiculous.
Robert J. Moeller
August 15th, 2009 - 14:59

Anonymous-

I have every right to judge my leaders based on their public record, their own memoirs, and 20 years of public service (even if most of it was organizing communities in a neo-Marxist fashion). I was more than fair to Barack Obama and even expressed sympathy for how he landed where he did ideologically and politically.

Everyone's worldview matters. Their philosophy of life and of politics has more to do with how the world works than you might appreciate.

Thanks for reading. Keep posting and send me an email (robbymoeller@gmail.com) if you want to converse further. God bless.
Sue
August 17th, 2009 - 11:20

Anonymous (1:03 PM) wrote: "Whether it's socialism or healthcare, let's crunch numbers and learn to understand the psychology of human behavior. Let's do our best to present information in an unbiased manner. Let's swallow our pride when we know we're wrong and try to avoid inherent human narcissim. This is how we learn and progress.

You have a lot of well thought out, well argued pieces in this blog. You are obviously well-read and have a great understanding of things. Don't fall into the politics trap. Keep it about the real issues and the evidence backing up your points. We don't need vague worldview generalizations and clips of Olbermann or Hannity acting ridiculous."

————–

I feel I must respond to the arrogance inherent in the above post.

No vague worldview generalizations were included in your blog, rather the above post is filled with such generalizations. Unfortunately for the poster, I suspect he/she has been indoctrinated him/herself and is blind to the power of a particular political trap and lacks understanding of the true psychology of human behavior.

Please keep communicating the truth about Obama and other powerful forces that are shaping our culture and realize that in doing so you will receive some ignorant/ arrogant posts–it comes with the territory.
Bill
August 19th, 2009 - 08:10

"I was more than fair to Barack Obama and even expressed sympathy for how he landed where he did ideologically and politically."
————
Mr. Moeller, let's have sympathy for how you landed. What a presumptuous statement.

Based on your photo you appear to be a person of European descent. Therefore, you have zero, ZERO clue as to the difficulties experienced by non-whites in this culture. What's this beef that "people of color" just can't let go? It's that dominant white powers just don't get it. Sorry, but you don't. When someone is in control and living the easy life, it's quite easy to see life through another prism. We are not victims; we have pushed through despite eons of mistreatment. But we, and I do mean the collective of groups that have been denigrated throughout history, are quite tired of white privilege and its associated arrogance. These groups aren't racist, just tired of garbage like this. You are the one with the flawed ideologies (not all, just some). I appreciate your attempts but in the end, it's the typical "I'm better, this person isn't" mentality that is carried by capitalism's elites, and they use pawns such as poor, working-class whites to further their own goals. When are the masses going to wake up?
Sue
August 20th, 2009 - 11:15

My, my, Bob, you sound like one who has been well indoctrinated.

Who are you to assume Mr. Moeller has "zero, ZERO clue as to the difficulties experienced by non-whites in this culture."

You are the one who sounds arrogant and judgmental. Perhaps, you could begin by looking in the mirror and doing some self-examination.
Sue
August 20th, 2009 - 11:17

Er, I meant to address my comment to Bill, not Bob. Sorry for the confusion.

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